Duray - Viaduct Generation (00:00) Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Wise Bull Bridges. The Wise Build Bridges is a podcast by Viaduct Generation, mission led SEO agency. My name is Duray the South African SEO and the Wise Bull Bridges is a podcast dedicated to highlighting and spotlighting marketers who are building something with real purpose. We believe that in uncertain times, the wise build bridges, they share ideas, build connections and help others. And today I am joined by Yasmin Wilkinson, who is on a mission to help others. Yasmin, how are you? And thanks so much for being on the podcast. Yasmin Wilkinson (00:34) Hi, Duray. I am really good. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Duray - Viaduct Generation (00:38) It's an absolute absolute pleasure. Yes, when we're to get right into it. Tell us about what you are building at the moment. Yasmin Wilkinson (00:44) Yeah, so I guess my... job title per se as career alignment strategist. But essentially what that means is I teach overwhelmed marketers and I guess more widely professionals who've hit a wall, whether that's emotionally, energetically or professionally, how to sort of realign their work with their true values because I think a lot of us don't realise that our values, you have your core internal values but our values actually can change through our careers and through life depending on lots of external factors as well so it's really easy to get caught up in kind of the fast pace especially in the marketing world and kind of not have your work aligned with those values as you go through your career. So I'm building North Code and that's my sort self discovery system that uses values discovery, reflection and career alignment strategy to help people get back aligned with their values and enjoy work again really is what it's all about. For me, that comes from my own experience with Burnout last year. So I was a marketing manager in a really busy marketing and sales agency, but I was working more on the in-house marketing. So yeah, riddle me that. It was a bit of a mad one. And I'd worked there for a good sort of four, almost five years, and I absolutely loved working there. It was really fast-paced. We had lots of big tech. companies as clients and it was just it was really interesting and I really believed in the business hence why I moved to do their in-house marketing as well. I was building a team from the ground up and so that was always hectic going from one, i.e. just me, to then a team of sort of five or six of us and I learned a lot of lessons doing that. I think in that time as well, also a few years ago got my sort of ADHD diagnosis, which was pretty life changing for many reasons, but it was a really positive thing to sort of have that validation and get some clues and answers as to things that I'd sort of questioned for such a long time and had definitely impacted my work. And I think that was one of the driving reasons to go and get diagnosed is because I was starting to really struggle with my concentration and things like that, especially which I noticed during work. So lots of things going on, lots of internal factors that I definitely would love to share more about and dive into. But essentially I got to the point where my work wasn't aligned with. how I felt inside. And I was letting a lot of self-limiting beliefs really paralyze me and keep me kind of stuck. And it was those self-limiting beliefs were driven by fear. So they were really sort of stopping me and preventing me and paralyzing me from making the changes that I needed to do. And I was kind of just convincing myself that everything was fine. And if I just did more of this or a bit more of that, then I'd feel better tomorrow. And the thing is, is when you do that for too long, that's when you hit burnout eventually. Now, I think what I love to do is help people through my online mentoring at the moment and then as I said, I'm building Northcode, which is going to be a bit more of a self-led digital system to help you identify those thoughts and fears and all those internal narratives that could be keeping you stuck or keeping you in a position where you're just not enjoying your work anymore. So yeah, the goal is all about, I guess, helping anyone who's either approaching burnout or recovering from burnout to stop living in that survival mode and stop kind of surviving the day to day and just getting through to five, six o'clock and oftentimes it's like nine, 10 o'clock and just start feeling really good about their career again and their work again. Duray - Viaduct Generation (04:30) That's really amazing. Yes. And thanks so much for that. I think what I understand from that is that there are a number of marketing professionals that are constantly feeling the pressure to stay abreast with a number of things that are changing in the ever changing world of marketing as chat GPT likes to mention so often. But what are some advice that you can offer based on your experience based on your knowledge in terms of noticing when you may be feeling those elements of burnout. What advice could you give to those people who ultimately have so much responsibilities that they do have to kind of almost be in the career that otherwise doesn't suit them that well, but they kind of have to. They haven't got the opportunity to make a quick switch. What are some things that you can offer to help them manage burnout better? Yasmin Wilkinson (05:16) Yeah, so I think it's like you say, it's not about necessarily helping someone just overturn their whole life and completely turn things upside down and make a change and that sort of thing. But I think it's a really relevant and common, I guess, problem and issue that's going on in the world of marketing. There's such a high rate of that marketing burnout happening. Like you say, there's various reasons for it actually. had a look at a survey from Marketing Week that was done earlier this year and it said 80 % of marketers have experienced imposter syndrome, 60 % feel overwhelmed and over 50 % of them felt emotionally exhausted. I mean those numbers kind of say it all right, like that's huge. So it's definitely a problem and it's not a trend. you know, something that people are jumping on and everyone's putting in their two cents, but it's a really real issue. And I think it can be very easy to blame external factors. So things like, I don't have enough budget or... there's got like 10 new clients to onboard and I don't have enough hands on deck to help me get through this or we don't have the right skills in place in the team and we can't get that in quick enough. So it's really easy to blame those things, but for me it was a deeply internal issue. Like it was a very much a personal internal thing. but I guess it was exacerbated by some of those external things. So my advice would be is to think about the internal and not to necessarily look straight away to the external, which no judgment is the easiest thing to do because that's the day-to-day survival mode that you're in. And those are the things that are, I guess, triggering that stress for you. But really, usually very much more so an internal issue. And if you can start there, then start looking at that a bit more closely, then things really start to change for you on the external as well. So for me, burnout was a result of, I guess, ignoring those internal things for way too long. And I would say most of the time, it's not necessarily like what's holding us back from making those changes or trying to... navigate this in a way that we can avoid that burnout or come back from it. It's not that you have like a lack of ambition that's keeping you stuck, it's that you've got a mindset that you've usually like quietly almost like not even realize that you're absorbing over a long period of time. And a lot of beliefs in these mindsets are built throughout your whole life, in fact, and they kind of build and they change over time and you just apply them to the situation that you're in, especially at work. So you don't really think to question them. But yeah, I think over time that kind of leaves us stuck in roles that don't reflect who we truly are. An example, I guess I can give you of that would be for me, something that held me back for a long time was the fear of being seen. So obviously coming on a podcast today is something that I'm doing to really help overcome that and the more opportunities I take, the more I go towards them, they get less and less scary. So much more exciting, which is really great. I think right in the beginning when I was too afraid to do things like that in the context of perhaps doing my role in marketing, it was very much I'm scared to get up in front of the board and present this strategy because I'm afraid that they are going to pick me apart and I'm going to be judged and you know all those things and there's loads of other situations I guess you can apply that to. It's not necessarily just going on podcasts but it could be doing social media marketing, whatever it might be. But it really started to break down my confidence and my own abilities after a while because what I realized was staying invisible wasn't actually protecting me at all. What it was doing was it was fuelling all those other fears that I had that I was trying to ignore or avoid looking at too closely, such as fear of failure. So back to the board meeting example, the board presentation. I was scared to present my strategy. I didn't want to be up on that stage. I thought people were going to judge me. They were going to think I didn't know what I was talking about or I'm under qualified for the role, just whatever it might be. But then there was also that fear of, well, imagine if none of that happens. What then if I put the strategy forward and it doesn't work? Like, what happens then? am I going to lose my job? Like what if it doesn't perform? What if the campaigns don't perform? What if the messaging doesn't land? There's so many different ways that that core kind of fear and that mindset bleeds into other areas and it becomes, it just ends up paralysing you. So yeah, burnout kind of happens when we don't see that internal issue and when we don't give ourselves the opportunity to reframe those mindsets. So I guess a tip to start looking at that stuff is just to be honest with yourself. Just be honest and say, yeah, there's probably an element of fear going on here. I probably have some mindsets that I'm... don't even realise they're impacting me on my day to day and just be curious about it. Just be curious and start looking at that. Be really kind to yourself about it. And maybe, you you don't have to say jump on it and go on a podcast the next day, but start small, start really small. Like have a conversation with someone that you've been kind of dreading or, you know, put some notes together about what you want to talk to that person about. Like start really small and that little bit of action will get you to the next step. Duray - Viaduct Generation (10:41) So let me try and summarize that in an eloquent manner because there's so many interesting bits there. But would you say then would you agree that developing your own self-awareness allows for you to like appreciate and that self-discovery process allows for you to really resonate with your inner core values, which can then make sure that your job or your career is currently aligned to those core values. So to avoid burnout having an improving your self-awareness is a key is a key aspect. that right yes or no Yasmin Wilkinson (11:10) Absolutely yes, yeah, I think it's all about kind of, yeah well done, sorry I definitely was kind of like just rolling with it there. I love talking about this stuff so I just keep going and going but no great summary I think that's the key is that self-awareness and if you don't have that self-awareness yeah it's starting with that self-discovery and just like I said that honesty around, okay there's definitely some stuff going on there that I... Duray - Viaduct Generation (11:12) Nice. Yasmin Wilkinson (11:36) I know it's challenging me and I've been afraid to look at it and then just start being a bit curious about it. Duray - Viaduct Generation (11:41) So I have, I've been writing a journal. once every two weeks for the last eight years. And it's great because I look at things and three years ago that I was like, my God, I was so worried about that. Can you believe it? That's crazy. Cause I've got way bigger things to worry about now. Let me write about them. And then three years later or two years later, go, no, I was worried about that. was starting a podcast. How crazy is that? I'm now doing this. you know what I mean? So it's always, it's always quite interesting to look back and look at what are the big priorities. But I do feel that once I'm able write it down it's off my shoulders a little bit sometimes my mind is like gotta do this gotta do that and I have a notepad next to my bed and I just write send invoices or update HubSpot or whatever it is and that just makes my mind go okay we'll talk about that tomorrow then and that's really helpful for me but can you give some other tips in terms of how people can develop that self-awareness to build up their kind of armory to fight burnout Yasmin Wilkinson (12:33) Yeah, definitely. first of all, I absolutely love, love your strategy and kind of what you do to really help, help with that. And I think a lot of this is tied to a lot of it. all sort of, it all sounds like it's mental, but a lot of it is tied to like our emotional and our physical as well. So a lot of it is tied to our nervous system. I won't go too much into like that. That's like a whole nother realm that I, even I'm still learning so much. about that side of things but what I would say is it's about creating a safe space for yourself so what you said there with the journaling would probably be one of my top tips is start writing it somewhere because that's safe that's just you putting your thoughts down and Also, don't judge yourself. Just be really kind to yourself as well and think about it as if it's like a younger version of you. Perhaps it's written that down. Like if it was you two years ago or something and think, you know, would you be mean to them? Would you judge them about that? Would you say, You shouldn't be worried about that or you're going crazy, don't even think about that, that shouldn't be something that's concerning you or would you be mean to yourself about it? No, you wouldn't. I think most people will find that they absolutely wouldn't. And I think that's a really helpful tip is to kind of... get those thoughts down if you can in a way and it's that first step of I guess being curious and figuring out a way that helps you explore it without feeling like you are gonna... like at the same time as offloading, guess, instead of feeling like by exploring it, you're actually just opening the floodgates to loads more stress coming in because you're absolutely right. It can be really terrifying to put things down, but once you do, it is a weight off your shoulders. that, it really does help. So I would definitely say journaling is a great option for sort of facing that. And again, if you have people around you, perhaps like a great manager or someone on your team, feel like you can talk to about this stuff. I would say do that, obviously always be careful because you don't want to go in like I hate my work, I think if you're at the point where you are understanding or you're ready to kind of be honest about okay it's not just like the external factors that start looking at some internal factors, talk to someone at work or a friend because I can guarantee they've probably experienced something similar. people just, there's not many sort of safe spaces or communities to really air out those challenges and grievances because people hold a lot of shame and that's why they keep them as fears and why they keep them as self-limiting beliefs. But yeah, I think you'll find that lots of people have experienced the same, if not similar things, perhaps in a slightly different context and that can be really helpful. Duray - Viaduct Generation (15:15) That's brilliant. Thank you so much. That's really, really interesting. So there are a number of tips then and tactics that people can use to to prevent burnout, to overcome burnout. And it's really awesome to hear what you're building at Northcode and some tips in terms of developing self belief. But let's also talk about how others can make their job a little how they can be better at understanding themselves and understand what they need, but also how they can be better at their jobs. You've got a fantastic marketing career and now you're building a community and a system that's helping marketers kind of stay true to themselves and helping them deliver the best out of their career. But let's dig into some of the kind of key marketing shifts that you're seeing at the moment. Is there something that all marketing managers that are listening to this podcast now should pay particular attention to over the next few months? Yasmin Wilkinson (16:04) Yeah, I would say it's something that all marketing managers could really pay attention to at the moment is the rise of kind of realness and that authenticity piece. So this is a bit of a switch up from thinking about yourself and being authentic in yourself and your values and things like that at work. But when you're actually looking to the outside world, that's also being mirrored, I would say in marketing, especially with brands and authenticity I'm finding is the bridge that really connects brands to their audience. Brands are breaking the fourth wall on social media especially a lot more which I've noticed myself on TikTok and Instagram and things like that. They're really showing up where their people and their audiences already are. Examples of that I've seen, I saw a story of a I think it was a woman in America and she'd had like a crazy manic Monday and like you couldn't write it all this stuff had gone wrong. And I think it was a load of cereal brands had commented like they were in the comment section. And when I first started Sky, I go straight to the comments when I see a video, because I'm just interested to see what everyone's chatting about. So I'm still watching this video and this story of this crazy Monday is still unfolding. And there's a load of like cereal breakfasty type brands in the comments and they're just kind of like saying we got you girl or like giving her a bit of like a bit of love kind of thing but they're not really saying anything specific and I thought that's really random like that doesn't make sense but actually as I got further to the end of the video I realized it's actually strategic and They were all kind of breakfasty cereal brands in that realm, like a milk brand, I think. And I guess they were all kind of in there because the key part was if she'd maybe started her day with breakfast, she would have felt much more equipped to deal with the stuff that had come towards her in her day, which was interesting. But yeah, I thought this is actually a strategic move here. again, I thought on the surface, just looks like the marketing team has got hold of the social logins and they're just kind of doing what they want on there. were like they're just at being themselves instead of the brand but again as I looked and saw more of them and kind of put them together I realized they actually all have quite distinct tone of voice and it's their brand voice mixed with I guess their social media team's voice so kind of that millennial or gen Z perhaps-esque type of comments and things and I thought that's actually a really really nice blend and they're still distinct, they're still slightly different, they're not just all exactly the same which I think is really important. Anyway I just showed that they were I guess they were relatable to that girl like who was in a specific segment of their target audience and they were going to her and just kind of going, we're here, you know, when you're ready, we can help you. So you might not need it right now, but it feels like you might do soon. And so it just keeps them top of mind. And I thought that was actually super strategic. yeah, instead of waiting for the audience to find a campaign, they're kind of showing up where their audience already is. Duray - Viaduct Generation (19:02) I love that. That's really interesting transparency and that kind of brand authenticity. It doesn't have to be perfect, doesn't have to be polished, it can be raw, can be real. I love that. think that's really cool. And I love that term, the rise of realness. If I didn't call this the wise bull bridges, maybe I could call it the rise of realness. It's a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant slogan, if you will. So, Yasmin, as you know, this podcast is kind of sponsored by Viaduct Generation. We are an SEO agency and therefore have a load of people listening to this podcast looking for tips on acquisition. SEO kind of part of that acquisition family of marketing channels, if we will. And I wondered, did you have any tips that you can pass on to brands, maybe kind of touching on what you spoke about just a moment ago, but any tips on marketing managers that want to improve their acquisition channels? Yasmin Wilkinson (19:55) Yeah, definitely. kind of looping back to, I mean, for me, genuine connection trumps any sort of lead gen tactic or strategy or focus every day of the week. And I think going back to what we were just talking about there, there's some ways that brands are showing up more authentically and they're building that connection. in a couple of different ways. One part of that is I've noticed founders are sharing more parts of their journey, especially on social media. And think audiences are loving it, but they're showing the messy parts more. I think there's much less of fear around. getting cancelled or having to, like you say, be polished and perfect. And they're really showing the behind the scenes look and the challenges and the struggles as well as the positives and the wins, which I think is so important. I actually noticed that, funnily enough, that I wanted to talk about this and I noticed yesterday that you yourself had posted something on LinkedIn that was completely in line with that which I thought was fantastic. So I know that you obviously... know, share in that and that might be part of your strategy maybe intentionally. So yeah, it kind of shows, I guess, the unglamorous side of being a founder, which I thought was cool. But I also have a uni friend actually and he... has launched one of those sort mushroom coffee businesses. And he was a friend at uni. was like, I think we both worked in like doing promo and flyering at the nightclubs nearby or whatever. So he was very much like a social friend and I'd see him around and we'd say hi and stuff. And I started noticing that he was posting around six months ago about his business. And I'll give him a free plug here. name's James and his business is Balance Coffee. And he recently I started talking around the move from, I think, a powdered coffee to these liquid drops. And what I thought was really interesting about this strategy is I didn't need to read anything about why powdered mushroom coffee is... I don't know, not as great as liquid and why that has more nutrients because he was actually just sharing his behind the scenes context as the founder of the business. This is a literal... literal avenue that he would have had to explore and learn about. And then he's sharing the decisions that he has quite literally made that has got him to the point where he's going to invest a load of money back into this and create and launch this new product. And I just thought, what great marketing because you've sold me on it because you're sharing authentically everything that you've learned about it and you're sharing your thought process and your decision-making process around why you want to launch this product. all just from your LinkedIn posts and I think I must have only seen three maybe posts around this and I was like, yep, sold. I definitely would think that that's better than the power, I'll sign me up, you know? I think that's a really great sort of tactic, especially with content to go through and that there's nothing wrong with the teams who perhaps have a CEO who is, you know, there's a big, I guess a lot of space between the two of you or they're really busy. or they're overseas and it's hard to pin them down, whatever it might be. I don't think that there's anything wrong with marketing teams writing content for CEOs or outsourcing it to someone who can do that really well. But I think the key, if you are going to do that, is you need to get to know that person, whether it's your CEO, your CTO, whoever, shouldn't be a CMO, they should definitely be their own posts. But if you have a founder or a CEO, you want to write for, you need to get to know them. It could be as simple as go for a coffee with them and make sure that you're not allowed to talk about anything to do with work. It to all non-work topics. Go for a coffee, get to know them as a person, as an individual. Pay attention to the way they speak about things, not just what they talk about, but how they talk about that. If you're not able to do that, create a personality quiz or find a free one online or something that just gives you an insight into the type of person they are so you can really sort of nail that unique voice for them. And then conduct weekly interviews would be the second thing. And the thing about that is don't just do it with the CEO or the founder that you're writing for, do it with your customers too. So pick a customer each week and make sure that you speak to that customer first or take the insights from the previous week and that's what you want to feed straight up to your founder or CEO and talk to them about that and get their insights. And that means that you are not only, I guess, connecting your customer with the top end of your business, but you're getting that person's thoughts as well around how they can help them and really seeing that kind of those live insights. that's the kind of content that is going to be like. you know, the people are going to be eating up on social media. So I would say those are the two things I would do if you're going to write on behalf of a CEO or founder. But certainly you can still do the second part if they're going to write for themselves and help guide them with that for sure. So yeah, that's how you can find that unique voice instead of just copying and pasting like other founders' styles. So I think that's really important. Duray - Viaduct Generation (25:04) That's awesome and thank you for checking out my LinkedIn profile and supporting me on that. appreciate it. Sometimes I'm stuck between LinkedIn because I feel like I'm still climbing cringe mountain on that and I feel like to be good at anything you need to climb cringe mountain. I'm trying to get better at driving because yeah, authenticity right? I can't drive, I'm a 30 year old man that can't drive because I went from South Africa. I've been in Zone 1 of London for a while now and it's just why on earth do need to drive? But I want to learn to drive, it's like something I want to get better at, right? But every time I come from a driving lesson, I'm like more frustrated because it's a reminder that I'm not Lewis Hamilton yet. And I'm like, like it's so annoying to me. but I guess we all, we can't be amazing at things straight away, right? We have to like, we have to learn and we have to get better. We have to be okay with failure. and I think that's a big part about what you were touching on there previously in that in order to succeed and in order to, grow, we need to okay with being bad at things first. And I think that kind of that approach of letting go of perfection is probably is something that's come up actually amongst the number of marketing managers and founders that I've interviewed on this podcast is that perfection is the enemy of progress. Would you agree with that? Yasmin Wilkinson (26:25) I would agree with that 100%. Perfection is, I guess, definitely one of the things that holds me back. And to be honest with you, I battle with that every single day. At the moment, what that looks like is more so through, similar to you looking at those like social posts and battling Cringe Mountain and, you know, just launching this new brand. I'm very, I love things that are aesthetically pleasing. Like I'm just very driven by that. I've got my Venus in Taurus for any astrologers out there. that stuff, like I just, like things that look really good and look really cohesive and all of that. So it's really difficult for me to, I guess, test new things because they're all going to look slightly different, but that's the whole point of testing. And it's going to take me a little while to get to the point where my Instagram and, you know, whatever look really together and they look, you know, perfect. But if I did that now, I wouldn't be testing anything. I'd just be going with what I think is going to work. And that's kind of like the opposite of what we ever want to be doing in marketing. So I think striving for perfection can really hold you back and it can really actually feed that fear of failure or things going wrong. because you end up just delaying things or waiting for something to be perfect and then actually get closer to those fears around something not performing well actually coming true because you might have, you know, you're getting closer to missing the moment or being last off the mark instead of first to the party. that's a real kind of risk that you take with that. But I think the way to counteract it is just to act and... I don't say that lightly because action is really scary and it can be really scary but it doesn't have to be huge. So just take small steps like whatever it is that you're battling whether it's like you need a campaign to be perfect because before you go live with it look at what that's actually tied to like you're probably just terrified it's gonna do badly or whatever so look... Sorry that was my door. Shall I start again with that? Duray - Viaduct Generation (28:28) Do you want to get the bell? you want to get the bell? Do want to get the... No? Get it, it! Go! All yours! Second time! Yasmin Wilkinson (28:29) I will do one second, I'm so sorry. So sorry about that. Yeah, I can roll back and... when I see that, I'm go so loud and that parcel was meant to arrive tomorrow. But yeah, do you want me to roll back? I can't remember where. a point to count. Duray - Viaduct Generation (28:36) You're fine. Talk about authenticity. There we go. ⁓ Let's, because I think the next question is quite interesting as well, so I'll leave that one to Ruth to cut it up. Yasmin Wilkinson (28:51) Yes. Duray - Viaduct Generation (28:54) But hold on to what you were thinking because I'm going to kind of move on to another question to kind of enable the podcast to move forward. Yasmin, what you're building here with Northcode is absolutely amazing. And I think a lot of people in marketing could truly benefit from it. And I've seen a lot of people in my career in marketing thus far. Yasmin Wilkinson (28:54) Okay. Duray - Viaduct Generation (29:14) struggle with a lot of the things that you're going to be supporting them with. Imposter syndrome, self-awareness and making sure that they're kind of in a core values align with what they're trying to build and if you can marry that up it's super amazing. For some people out there they aren't in that position where maybe they have a lot of responsibilities they need to keep doing what they kind of are doing and what they've built and sometimes it's in the less sexy stuff right sometimes you're marketing SEO which is often considered the kind of less sexy of the of the marketing channels Everything else is kind of wrapped in gold but SEO is kind of like, okay, we'll get to it when we get to it. The ugly step sister maybe of marketing. And that's a good example of maybe myself who I'm trying to build visibility in a fairly crowded space. My uncle today can open up his laptop and decide that he is an SEO. So the market is saturated. Maybe not to SEO agencies but to any marketeers who feel like they are building in quite a saturated economy. crowded space, what advice would you give to them that are there for those people who are trying to kind of build visibility in those crowded spaces? Yasmin Wilkinson (30:25) Yeah, I think it's a really valid concern and question because as you say, especially with the rise of AI, it's not just you can Google anything and learn about things, but with AI as well, that has completely, I guess, really accelerated people's rate of learning and a lot of people will kind of like... claim to be the experts or go, I can just handle this or we'll just get AI to do it or whatever it might be. And they think they can forego that quality. I think so. yeah, the. the market can get really saturated really quickly. And the key is, guess, to the key that we're always trying to do in marketing is to set ourselves apart from everyone else in the market, whether you've got a super saturated market or it's really niche, I think you've still got to find your niche within that. if you are struggling with that, I would say get more specific, even more specific, because if it feels crowded, then you're probably still going way too broad. with your messages and your targeting, you might be able to help everyone. Like for example with my business, can help, it's not just marketers that I can help, but I have a marketing background and I've experienced that, so that's where I'm starting, know, like that's where I'm really getting down to my niche now because... there's a really big problem with marketing burnout specifically. I'm sure there's lots of other industries as well where that is a rising concern. But that's my context and that's my experience. So I marry that together and I can narrow that down. And I think the key thing to point out is it's just a starting point. You don't have to stay in that niche forever. And you can also market to multiple niches at once. If you have the budget and the team and the ability to do that, that's how you can scale. But you have to, you've got to start more specific. And I think a lot of brands, I mean, I've done this myself in the past, back in the day, like you go broad because you think, need as many people as possible to see what we're capable of doing, because I know we can help them, but... the broader that message goes, the more diluted it becomes and actually the quieter you become in that sea, in that market. So yeah, if it feels crowded, get more specific, I would say. Duray - Viaduct Generation (32:34) I think that's wonderful, wonderful bits of advice. Niche down even further, get specific and I guess as you niche down even further, you're allowed to speak that customer messaging, right? It's something that we've done at Viaduct. We were SEO for anyone with a budget and we were trying to kind of support in any way we can, but it felt that without really focusing on, in this case, e-commerce, our messaging was quite... wishy-washy shall we say but now really focusing on e-commerce and trying to understand the challenges that e-commerce businesses face we get to understand return rate AOV LTV those people that are now within certain sectors within e-commerce know that for example in the restricted marketing sectors like vaping and things like that viaduct is one of the best in the world at that if not the best in the world and I think that's because we've niched down and we focused on e-commerce and by chance different sectors within that kind of pop up and now we're looking at a lot of our brands coming to us that are in the kind of home and furniture space and we're like, hey, that's great. That lifetime value is pretty high and that AOV, they're not buying a 20 quid unit. All of a sudden they're buying a 500 pound unit. All of a sudden my SEO retainer ROI is made up really quickly, right? So yeah, it is fun. And I think you're absolutely right there in terms of niching down and getting specific. On that notion of getting specific, a lot of people listening to the Wise Bull Bridges are CMOs, marketing directors, head of marketing, but we also have marketing assistants, people, students that want to get into marketing and we'd to take a moment on this podcast to recognize them and to give some advice to your younger self. If you, Yasmin, today was talking to Yasmin of the start of Yasmin's career, what advice would you give to your younger self? Yasmin Wilkinson (34:25) That is a great question. I would say stay curious, learn widely and don't box yourself in too early. Unless of course there's like something you love doing, you're a designer and you like to design a specific way. Who am I to say don't do that? But I would say on the large, like try and... try not to box yourself in too early. I think there's a lot of beauty to being a generalist or having a general knowledge of different skill sets and areas and the different capabilities and abilities to do different parts of marketing and understand and see how that all works because... you can take a lot of those skills can be applied elsewhere and they're transferable. So it can only make you a better marketer in the long term. So I think that would be my initial advice. What I would also say at the same time though is protect your energy. So we all know like the marketing world is super fast moving. It can get pretty hectic and there can be a lot of expectation on you, especially if you do have if you're a generalist or you have a wide range of marketing skills, that pressure can become pretty enormous. So it is really important also to protect your energy. People will want you to be, especially when you're first starting out and if you're in a smaller company or a growing company. you know, businesses will want you to be everything all at once. So they'll want you to be a writer. They'll want you to be a designer. They'll want you to do the marketing strategy. They'll want you to do the digital marketing and the SEO. And yeah, like that's, that's where I think a lot of marketers hit that burnout point and they really start to struggle and they lose that kind of love for what they're doing. I see it time and time again. I've experienced it myself. It's, it's a real trap that is very easy to fall in. it's really important to set boundaries early on, whether that's in a new role, whether it's when you're kind of branching out and learning something new, if it's at a new company, working with someone new, whatever it might be, set those sort of boundaries early. And don't feel like you're saying, you know, setting a boundary isn't the same as saying no to something and it's not the same as saying, I'm not going to do that or I'm not helpful, like really have confidence to back yourself and set boundaries around your time and your energy and what you're able to take on. And I would say thirdly, with that, don't be afraid to ask for help. There's so many times in my career that I put off asking for help. and kind of just put a smile on and said, yeah, I can handle it all, throw more on me. Like, I love this stuff. I thrive in chaos. Like maybe a small part of me does. Like, yeah, of course. But I think when the chaos like quick, very quickly can spiral out of control and then it's like, you you're left completely overwhelmed. And again, like. it's another factor that can contribute to burnout and take you down that path and you really want to avoid that as much as possible. ask for help sooner if you feel like something could do with another set of eyes, another pair of hands, speak up and don't be afraid to ask that and don't see that as a weakness because that's actually a strength. Duray - Viaduct Generation (37:31) Yeah, that's really, really helpful, Yasmin. Thank you so much for that. I want to make sure that the audience hears that correctly because you mentioned a few things in there that I think were really interesting. You mentioned that it would be helpful in your long-term career not to get too specific straight away in terms of career, terms of as du-re as a marketeer or... Jess as the new budding marketing manager don't focus get too specific too early because having that kind of a general skill set means that when you are outsourcing or when you are starting new campaigns in different aspects that maybe you are unfamiliar with, at least you kind of know roughly what SEO looks like or you know roughly what a good successful traditional PR campaign looks like or you know roughly what a decent TikTok looks like. Whereas if you were, for example, exclusively a PPC specialist from the ages of 18 to 45 and then all of a sudden someone said, yeah, I need you to also build that TikTok campaign out. You're like, hello. That's a lot, right? So I think that's really good advice. And then you mentioned about boundaries and you mentioned that a lot of people will ask you to wear so many hats. So it's, want to be clear that, and I want to make sure that our audience understands that you only have as a marketer, you only have X amount of hours in a week. And whether you're wearing multiple hats, that's okay. Especially at the start of your career, think saying yes to things is helpful and I would agree. And, but as you go through later down the line and as people start bringing more and more things to your somehow never-ending to-do list, making sure that you establish priorities with those stakeholders is clear. So I say to my marketing team, I am gonna need you to be as much as kind of a jack of all trades here because we're a small team and I'm willing to pitch in and I'm willing to do my stuff and I'm willing to help out when the... too heavy but I need communication from you. So I would say things like I'm going to ask you to do things but I need you to come back to me and say okay DeRay I'm happy to do a course and a podcast and socials but just so you know if we're going to try and get this course done by November it means that this is my current timeline so I need to dedicate at least 10 hours a week to this course. As such I only have 30 hours a week to do the socials, the podcast, and the LinkedIn. Which one of these is the biggest priority for me to do? That to me is like, oh fantastic, because it means that I can prioritize and at least I have visibility. So I think helping for others, but also making sure that you communicate clearly with your manager and go. Mr. Manager, Mrs. Manager, thank you so much. Yes, I like that opportunity or yes, I'm able to take that on. I just need to share awareness with you and make sure that you are conscious of the things that I'm currently doing. If I was to add this in, where would it need to be in this list of kind of current priorities? And when do you need this kind of MVP done by or when do you need it ticked off? Because then it allows for them to go. actually this can wait or actually I think someone else has more capacity. Do think that those are some some good advice that that young young people and all people in marketing could could benefit from? Yasmin Wilkinson (40:37) Absolutely and that advice that never you say that never expires and can apply that throughout your career. There's a couple of things that I think it's really key not to over promise and under deliver. So especially early on in your career I think this is where a lot of people struggle as much earlier when you're kind of just wanting to make a great impression and you know be seen as the helpful member of the team who just gets stuck in and you know is really behind the brand and you know wants to make it work. It's very easy to kind of fall into that trap early. like you say, communication and I think alignment, team alignment, and this will speak to sort of founders and managers and things that making sure that you have alignment across your team. also across the other departments is so important and that will help that prioritisation become so much easier and it will just improve the efficiency of the whole marketing engine throughout the business. So making sure that you're all aligned on what takes priority, what you want to attack first. and also around, you know, messages and making sure that you're all speaking the same language throughout the business. Make sure leadership is speaking the same language and putting out the same messages as sales, as marketing, as product, you know, customer success, everyone. I think that alignment, you know, throughout is really important. Duray - Viaduct Generation (41:57) amazing. Yasen, it has been an absolute absolute pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for being on the Wisable Bridges. Before you go, for those people who really resonated with you, who want to learn more about Northcode and just maybe want to have a chat with you, where can they find you? Yasmin Wilkinson (42:14) Yeah, so I think the best place to find me is probably on Instagram. So that is at my North code. Or you can just search for my name, Yasmin Wilkinson on LinkedIn, and you'll find everything you need there. I've got a link tree that has like a hub of information. There's a ton of free resources. If you did want to start looking at those sort of mindsets or any self-limiting beliefs and kind of unpacking those and seeing how to reframe them into something more empowering. There's a load of free resources on there available to do that. And yeah, if you want to chat, just send me a DM on LinkedIn or Instagram, wherever. Duray - Viaduct Generation (42:51) Amazing. Yasmin Wilkinson, thank you so, so much. I wish you absolutely all the best with North Coat. will be following your progress with a smile and thanks again for being on the Wise Bull Bridges. I think you've got a fantastic message with the world. I want to say kudos for being brave enough to jump on this podcast. I think you've done a fantastic job. Thank you again for sharing your wisdom and your authentically being yourself and helping others get better. That's exactly what we've done at the Wise Bull Bridges. So yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much. Yasmin Wilkinson (43:20) Thanks much, Gera. was going say likewise. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Duray - Viaduct Generation (43:24) To everyone else that's listening to the Wise Book Bridges, thank you for listening to another episode and we'll see you at the next one. Bye for now.